Das ist richtig, aber Jolla hat zeitweise auch Vorbestellungen angenommen. Da ist man dann kein "Backer" mehr, sondern Käufer. Und der kann auf Erfüllung des Vertrages bestehen.
Da gibt es in den AGB bestimmt entsprechende Passagen, die es Jolla möglich machen den Vertrag einseitig zu kündigen, soweit noch nichts ausgeliefert wurde. Deren Eigentum ist es bis zur Auslieferung ohnehin (oder zumindest steht das immer in den AGB von Händlern, ob das rechtlich auch haltbar ist weiß ich nicht). Geld zurück muss dann aber natürlich auch sein (wobei ich jetzt gar nicht weiß, ob man direkt bezahlen musste oder erst bei Verfügbarkeit).
Ist halt die Frage, ob die entsprechenden Passagen der AGB nichtig sind und wie der Vertrag konkret aussieht. Die Vorbesteller haben bezahlt. Hier stellt sich die Frage, ob Jolla Schadenersatz leisten muss. Wenn sich die Parteien gütlich einigen können, finde ich das gut. Ansonsten bleibt nur Weg, die Sache juristisch klären zu lassen. Spekulationen bringen niemanden weiter. Sicher ist jedoch, dass Vorbesteller und Crowdfunder voneinander zu unterscheiden sind.
Wenn bezahlt wurde, dann muss etwas passieren, das ist klar.
Dass man aber irgendwo etwas bestellt, ggf. sogar bezahlt und dann nicht geliefert werden kann (aus verschiedenen Gründen) kommt immer mal wieder vor. Für solche Fälle wird sich jeder Händler irgendwie absichern. Ehrlich gesagt vermute ich sogar, dass diese Fälle längst abgewickelt wurden, es geht vermutlich nur noch um die Aktion bei Kickstarter.
Ehrlich gesagt vermute ich sogar, dass diese Fälle längst abgewickelt wurden, es geht vermutlich nur noch um die Aktion bei Kickstarter.
Nein. Sowohl bestellte, als auch gebackene Tablets für die Steuer und Lieferkosten angefordert wurden, wurden offensichtlich nicht geliefert.
ScumCoder on January 25, 2016 at 4:03 pm
Jolla was taking pre-orders in August-September 2015 and suggesting people to pay their taxes, exactly when they (as they admitted later) were experiencing financial problems. In other words, they were taking money from NEW customers to fulfil the orders of the OLD customers. Which is the exact definition of Ponzi scheme.
Maybe it’s YOU who should try spending a little more time on the Wikipedia web site.
Turbinenreiter on January 19, 2016 at 9:49 pm
I failed a lot, but I never took someone elses money and lied about it.
in mid-October, I was asked to finalize my order. To do that, I had to pay tax and shipping cost. I never got the tablet. Up until that point, it was crowdfunding and, sure, that can go wrong. But at the point they made me pay tax, it became a purchase. What did they do with that money? Payed tax for a product they didn’t ship? Or did they keep the money I paid for tax and used it for something else?
The only thing that went wrong with Jolla is that in the middle of the tablet campaign, the decided doing Hardware isn’t cool and focus instead on licensing Software. They weren’t committed to make the tablet. It wasn’t their number one priority. But if you run a crowdfunding campaign, fulfilling that has to be your number one priority, otherwise you are a scammer.
And if they want me to stop saying that, they just have to prove me wrong. Refund my money or ship my tablet.
Von R. G. Sidler am Mi, 27. Januar 2016 um 16:58 #
Ich bin trotz Allem immer noch begeisterter Jolla-Nutzer, der Jolla mit dem Kauf mehrerer Jolla-Telefone und Tablets unterstützt hat. Die Tatsache, dass ich einer der Ersten war, welche Tablets mit 64GB bestellt hat und nun trotzdem vielleicht keines erhalte, ist zwar ärgerlich, aber eines der möglichen Szenarios beim Crowdfunding, daher für mich in Ordnung.
Was mich wirklich ärgert, dass Taobao Jolla-Tablets verkauft, die die Backer bezahlt haben und so (möglicherweise, aber nicht sicher) doppelten Gewinn erzielt!
Link zu Taobao: (http://world.taobao.com/search/search.htm?_ksTS=1453910196276_53&from=tbsearch&_input_charset=utf-8&navigator=all&json=on&q=jolla%20tablet&callback=__jsonp_cb&abtest=_AB-LR517-LR854-LR895-PR854-PV517_2372-PV895_2461)
Dear Fellow would-be Jolla Tablet owners. I follow this blog as do you all in the vague hope of learning about what is going on at Jolla. In the absence of any new and updated information about the tablet I would like to call upon all of you to help me as I try to understand the current situation. To that end I will summarize my understand in the following bullet points below, and I ask you to either confirm or correct my pedestrian thinking:
Background: In the Nov 19th 2014 IGG campaign I signed-on as a backer for certain perks which included the 64GB version of the Tablet running Sailfish OS, the case by Lastu, and shipping. I signed-on to the campaign understanding there were certain risks involved including software development, hardware development, and indeed the financial stability and longevity of the Jolla company. Now I know some of you on this blog actually ordered the tablet from the Jolla store, but the above are the details for my situation, which I know is similar to that of many others.
1. Since the campaign Jolla have infrequently this blog with various statements about the tablet progress. However, as of today my understanding is that (i) the Sailfish OS has actually been developed and exists today, even though Jolla have not sent me a copy; (ii) the tablet hardware, which turned out to be a 3rd party ODM tablet, has been developed and exists today, even though Jolla have not sent me one; (iii) the case by Lastu has been developed and exists today, even though Jolla have not sent me one; (iv) shortly before the end of last year Jolla nearly went out of business, but then almost at the last moment they secured additional financing, which is of course good news; (v) In December Jolla stated (rather clumsily) that they had decided not to provide most of the backers with tablets after all, but not to worry because they were working on a “surprise” which would be announced in the New Year; (vi) Yesterday the blog was indeed updated, but Jolla have now simply stopped talking altogether about the tablet, the IGG backers, and the customers who ordered the tablet from the Jolla store.
3. Given the above then it appears to my simplistic mind that the HW, SW and accessories exist and that Jolla now has the financial backing to continue operations. It is simply that the Jolla leadership have decided not to deliver on their campaign promise after all and have now decided not to talk about it any more.
Does anyone else see it this way?
SchropfeMich on January 21, 2016 at 12:32 am
I am going to be called a “conspiracy theorist” but I am pretty sure that the Jolla’s investors agreed to continue funding if – and only if – the Tablet project will be dropped altogether. The reason for this thought is that our Tablets (that were lying on a shelf in the Chinese warehouse) appeared at Taobao at the exact time when Antti Saarnio declared that he successfully received the next share of money from the investors.
So my view is this: 1. investors demanded from Antti Saarnio to scrap the Tablet 2. Antti said “sure” because he does not give a frak about anything except money 3. Chinese manufacturer was informed that the remaining Tablets won’t be bought by Jolla 4. Chinese manufacturer started to get rid of the tablets via TaoBao to reduce money loss 5. Naturally, numerous user’s appeals to Jolla to stop this atrocity ended with nothing (you can still buy a Jolla tablet at Taobao) 6. Jolla representatives started to behave like there is no such thing as “Jolla Tablet” and it never existed.
mannix63 on January 21, 2016 at 12:10 am
I know the risk of a crowdsourcing campaign and I also know about the ToS and no, I’m not whining as a tablet backer w/o getting the tablet yet. But now I’m disappointed about the communication and behaviour of head of Jolla. They said, they used the money to develop SF instead of making the tablet. They showed a running tablet at MWC 2015 and later in the year, they explained they have to change several things to implement a better display in the tablet. Was that the truth or was that only a step to procrastinate the delivery of the tablet and tell the backers fables?
The IGG campaign was made for the tablet and the SF, single one of these would make no sense … but the message now is, SF is also useful for the phone and the important business case for Jolla, so forget the tablet and be happy about the SF and Jolla can continue with their business based on SF.
I use the Jolla phone since early 2015 and the phone and SF is really very good and I’m happy, that Jolla can continue developing SF and deliver updates for SF. But Jolla’s communication is disastrous and unfaithful and so Jolla will lose a lot of trust. For me, it’s hard to keep my excitement for them.
Auch wenn Jolla sich schon sehr "unglücklich" verhalten hat.
Das ist richtig, aber Jolla hat zeitweise auch Vorbestellungen angenommen. Da ist man dann kein "Backer" mehr, sondern Käufer. Und der kann auf Erfüllung des Vertrages bestehen.
Da gibt es in den AGB bestimmt entsprechende Passagen, die es Jolla möglich machen den Vertrag einseitig zu kündigen, soweit noch nichts ausgeliefert wurde. Deren Eigentum ist es bis zur Auslieferung ohnehin (oder zumindest steht das immer in den AGB von Händlern, ob das rechtlich auch haltbar ist weiß ich nicht).
Geld zurück muss dann aber natürlich auch sein (wobei ich jetzt gar nicht weiß, ob man direkt bezahlen musste oder erst bei Verfügbarkeit).
Ist halt die Frage, ob die entsprechenden Passagen der AGB nichtig sind und wie der Vertrag konkret aussieht. Die Vorbesteller haben bezahlt. Hier stellt sich die Frage, ob Jolla Schadenersatz leisten muss. Wenn sich die Parteien gütlich einigen können, finde ich das gut. Ansonsten bleibt nur Weg, die Sache juristisch klären zu lassen. Spekulationen bringen niemanden weiter.
Sicher ist jedoch, dass Vorbesteller und Crowdfunder voneinander zu unterscheiden sind.
Wenn bezahlt wurde, dann muss etwas passieren, das ist klar.
Dass man aber irgendwo etwas bestellt, ggf. sogar bezahlt und dann nicht geliefert werden kann (aus verschiedenen Gründen) kommt immer mal wieder vor.
Für solche Fälle wird sich jeder Händler irgendwie absichern. Ehrlich gesagt vermute ich sogar, dass diese Fälle längst abgewickelt wurden, es geht vermutlich nur noch um die Aktion bei Kickstarter.
(Oder gibt es Verweise auf andere Infos?)
ScumCoder on January 25, 2016 at 4:03 pm
Jolla was taking pre-orders in August-September 2015 and suggesting people to pay their taxes, exactly when they (as they admitted later) were experiencing financial problems. In other words, they were taking money from NEW customers to fulfil the orders of the OLD customers. Which is the exact definition of Ponzi scheme.
Maybe it’s YOU who should try spending a little more time on the Wikipedia web site.
Turbinenreiter on January 19, 2016 at 9:49 pm
I failed a lot, but I never took someone elses money and lied about it.
in mid-October, I was asked to finalize my order. To do that, I had to pay tax and shipping cost. I never got the tablet.
Up until that point, it was crowdfunding and, sure, that can go wrong.
But at the point they made me pay tax, it became a purchase. What did they do with that money? Payed tax for a product they didn’t ship? Or did they keep the money I paid for tax and used it for something else?
The only thing that went wrong with Jolla is that in the middle of the tablet campaign, the decided doing Hardware isn’t cool and focus instead on licensing Software. They weren’t committed to make the tablet. It wasn’t their number one priority.
But if you run a crowdfunding campaign, fulfilling that has to be your number one priority, otherwise you are a scammer.
And if they want me to stop saying that, they just have to prove me wrong. Refund my money or ship my tablet.
Quelle nachreich: https://blog.jolla.com/taalojarvi_early_access/
Ok, das geht so natürlich nicht. Da haben die vollkommen recht.
Ich bin trotz Allem immer noch begeisterter Jolla-Nutzer, der Jolla mit dem Kauf mehrerer Jolla-Telefone und Tablets unterstützt hat. Die Tatsache, dass ich einer der Ersten war, welche Tablets mit 64GB bestellt hat und nun trotzdem vielleicht keines erhalte, ist zwar ärgerlich, aber eines der möglichen Szenarios beim Crowdfunding, daher für mich in Ordnung.
Was mich wirklich ärgert, dass Taobao Jolla-Tablets verkauft, die die Backer bezahlt haben und so (möglicherweise, aber nicht sicher) doppelten Gewinn erzielt!
Link zu Taobao: (http://world.taobao.com/search/search.htm?_ksTS=1453910196276_53&from=tbsearch&_input_charset=utf-8&navigator=all&json=on&q=jolla%20tablet&callback=__jsonp_cb&abtest=_AB-LR517-LR854-LR895-PR854-PV517_2372-PV895_2461)
Quelle: https://blog.jolla.com/taalojarvi_early_access/
ance.cornish on January 20, 2016 at 11:41 pm
Dear Fellow would-be Jolla Tablet owners. I follow this blog as do you all in the vague hope of learning about what is going on at Jolla. In the absence of any new and updated information about the tablet I would like to call upon all of you to help me as I try to understand the current situation. To that end I will summarize my understand in the following bullet points below, and I ask you to either confirm or correct my pedestrian thinking:
Background: In the Nov 19th 2014 IGG campaign I signed-on as a backer for certain perks which included the 64GB version of the Tablet running Sailfish OS, the case by Lastu, and shipping. I signed-on to the campaign understanding there were certain risks involved including software development, hardware development, and indeed the financial stability and longevity of the Jolla company. Now I know some of you on this blog actually ordered the tablet from the Jolla store, but the above are the details for my situation, which I know is similar to that of many others.
1. Since the campaign Jolla have infrequently this blog with various statements about the tablet progress. However, as of today my understanding is that
(i) the Sailfish OS has actually been developed and exists today, even though Jolla have not sent me a copy;
(ii) the tablet hardware, which turned out to be a 3rd party ODM tablet, has been developed and exists today, even though Jolla have not sent me one;
(iii) the case by Lastu has been developed and exists today, even though Jolla have not sent me one;
(iv) shortly before the end of last year Jolla nearly went out of business, but then almost at the last moment they secured additional financing, which is of course good news;
(v) In December Jolla stated (rather clumsily) that they had decided not to provide most of the backers with tablets after all, but not to worry because they were working on a “surprise” which would be announced in the New Year;
(vi) Yesterday the blog was indeed updated, but Jolla have now simply stopped talking altogether about the tablet, the IGG backers, and the customers who ordered the tablet from the Jolla store.
3. Given the above then it appears to my simplistic mind that the HW, SW and accessories exist and that Jolla now has the financial backing to continue operations. It is simply that the Jolla leadership have decided not to deliver on their campaign promise after all and have now decided not to talk about it any more.
Does anyone else see it this way?
SchropfeMich on January 21, 2016 at 12:32 am
I am going to be called a “conspiracy theorist” but I am pretty sure that the Jolla’s investors agreed to continue funding if – and only if – the Tablet project will be dropped altogether. The reason for this thought is that our Tablets (that were lying on a shelf in the Chinese warehouse) appeared at Taobao at the exact time when Antti Saarnio declared that he successfully received the next share of money from the investors.
So my view is this:
1. investors demanded from Antti Saarnio to scrap the Tablet
2. Antti said “sure” because he does not give a frak about anything except money
3. Chinese manufacturer was informed that the remaining Tablets won’t be bought by Jolla
4. Chinese manufacturer started to get rid of the tablets via TaoBao to reduce money loss
5. Naturally, numerous user’s appeals to Jolla to stop this atrocity ended with nothing (you can still buy a Jolla tablet at Taobao)
6. Jolla representatives started to behave like there is no such thing as “Jolla Tablet” and it never existed.
mannix63 on January 21, 2016 at 12:10 am
I know the risk of a crowdsourcing campaign and I also know about the ToS and no, I’m not whining as a tablet backer w/o getting the tablet yet. But now I’m disappointed about the communication and behaviour of head of Jolla. They said, they used the money to develop SF instead of making the tablet. They showed a running tablet at MWC 2015 and later in the year, they explained they have to change several things to implement a better display in the tablet. Was that the truth or was that only a step to procrastinate the delivery of the tablet and tell the backers fables?
The IGG campaign was made for the tablet and the SF, single one of these would make no sense … but the message now is, SF is also useful for the phone and the important business case for Jolla, so forget the tablet and be happy about the SF and Jolla can continue with their business based on SF.
I use the Jolla phone since early 2015 and the phone and SF is really very good and I’m happy, that Jolla can continue developing SF and deliver updates for SF. But Jolla’s communication is disastrous and unfaithful and so Jolla will lose a lot of trust. For me, it’s hard to keep my excitement for them.